Hear how creators navigate doubt and shift their mindsets

At Hot Topics: Doubt, a recent online, audio-only event hosted by Patreon, two creators — rapper Ben Miller, known as Wrekonize, and Abigail Thorn, actress and creator of the web show from Philosophy Tube — share their approaches for contending with uncertainty. Their conversation covers shifting to a positive mindset, committing to themselves and their crafts, staying accountable, and more.

For more ideas for dealing with doubt, read How to deal with doubt and stay true to your creative vision. To participate in future discussions and events like this one, sign up for Patreon's next live session.

Session transcript

Posadas:
Even when you're creating what you love, doubt has a way of creeping in. It might make you second guess your process or even question your creativity. So today we'll hear a discussion between two creators on Patreon. We'll get to know them and their work as well as how they overcome this uncertainty and shift to positive mindset. First up, it is my pleasure to welcome Ben to Hot Topics. Hey Ben. How you doing?

Ben:
Hey, how's it going?

Posadas:
Oh, I'm doing a okay. I am living life. There's 250 people in this audience listening to us. I'm so happy.

Ben:
I see them. The chat's on light speed.

Posadas:
It's on light speed. Well, thank you for being here. It's such a pleasure. Could you please introduce yourself to everyone because some of them may not know how dope you are.

Ben:
I appreciate that. And I'm pretty sure a lot of them don't, so yeah, hey, what's up everybody? Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're at. My name is recognized, my friends call me Wrek. I am a musician, producer, performer. I've been a Patreon creator since 2019. I'm most known for being one of the lead vocalists in a band called Mayday. We're like a hybrid hip hop, reggae, funk rock. We kind of do a lot of different music genres in one band. And then I also do solo work as well, known as a solo MC. Came up as a battle rapper when I was younger. And now just basically, you know, release some music podcasts, do live performances, live streams, that kind of thing.

Posadas:
Cool. Awesome. Great, I love that. To get us started, I want, can you share with us a memory of when you experienced out as a creator, perhaps like early in your career or more recent and we'll like dive more deeply into it later just to kind of get it warmed up.

Ben:
Oh yeah, absolutely. We can go all the way back. We can go super back if you like. Probably the first, like the first real instance, I can think back in like my musical journey or my professional career. My father is actually a songwriter, a singer songwriter, plays guitar, sings, was in a band, met my mother in a band basically, I grew up watching him make music. And when I got around the age that I, you know, maybe about 7, 8, 9 years old, thinking, ah, like my dad looks so cool doing what he does, and like, I really want to be a part of that, I wanna make music too. My dad struggled a lot with trying to break into the music industry. he never really like attained commercial success. He still makes music to this day. He enjoys it, he gets joy out of it, but he never really found a commercial wave that he could ride. So when I came around the time that I was, you know, approaching 10 saying, oh yeah, I wanna be just like you dad. My dad's first reaction wasn't so much to like, deter me from doing it, but he just wanted to really stress to me how hard it was to do it as a profession. So the first thing I was met with was, yeah, that's cool, you wanna do it too, but you should just know that it's difficult for the all these reasons, you know?

Posadas:
Yeah, totally.

Ben:
Yeah, it was like, it was encouraging, but at the same time it was like a cautionary kind of statement that he gave me. So already right off the bat, my first thing to say, like, yeah, I wanna be a musician, was like, well, it's kind of hard, you know, you probably, yeah. Not gonna make it kind of vibe. So already my opening number for music, you know, my opening conversation was of all the reasons why it may never happen, you know?

Posadas:
Yeah, yeah. And then, but then, you know, we'll hear more about how you kept going. But seriously, thank you for sharing all that and loving the hearing it early in your career. And then we'll bring us back to more recently. But before then, let's meet our next guest. Abi. Hi Abi. How's it going?

Abi:
Hello. Hello. It's lovely to be here.

Posadas:
Oh, I cannot express what delight it is to welcome you in to hot topics. We are so lucky to have you today. Can you also introduce yourself to everyone who's tuning in, so they can realize how cool you are.

Abi:
My name is Abigail Thorn. My pronouns are she and her. And as you might be able to tell from my accent, I'm dialing in from London in the UK. I've been a creator on Patreon for so long. I can't even remember how long it's been. There must be five or six years. As I said, I'm an actress and a writer, a playwright and a screenwriter. I'm also the creator of Philosophy Tube, which is what Patreon knows me for. I have a YouTube show where I teach people philosophy in a fun theatrical way, because philosophy was my first degree, and that's generously supported by all the patrons on Patreon. I also have a podcast called Kill James Bond, which has a separate Patreon account where me and my two best friends in the world just talk about silly films, mainly James Bond. That's how we started. But then we ran out of Bond films and sort of branched out and yeah, Philosophy Tube turns 10 years old this year.

Posadas:
Congratulations. That's amazing.

Abi:
Yeah, which is kind of unbelievable. Like 10 years and 1.3 million subscribers later. It's become a big, it's a national phenomenon and it's opened to all kinds of doors. There still is opening doors in ways that I can't quite believe, but do my best to try and earn.

Posadas:
Amazing, that's such, such a feat. And also like, love hearing about your podcast too. I'm glad to check that out as well. So today's topic is all about doubt. I'd love for you to share a story that you shared with me last week when you were in university that made an impact on uni creative process when you experienced a, you know, a colleague or classmate experiencing doubt. Can you share that with us?

Abi:
Yes, of course. So it was when I was at drama school, which again was a few years ago now, and a lot of, well, I went to one of those British drama schools that really sort of breaks you down and recreates you into a new person, wonderful, fantastic training, East 15 Acting School. But you know, it's the drama school that you imagine in your head, kind of, you know, strict teachers that none of them were Russian, but you know, in my head they had Russian accents and all that, "Stand up straight", you know, all this stuff. So one of my fellow classmates was being asked to play a scene and he was finding it difficult and he said, I'm just not very confident and am I allowed to swear, by the way before I continue this story?

Posadas:
Keep going, have fun

Abi:
Well, I will swear just this once because the course facilitator did, 'cause my colleague said, I'm just not very confident. And the head of the course said, confidence is bullshit. Confidence is bullshit that is used to sell self-help books. What you need is entitlement. Have you done your character research? Have you learned your lines? Do you know your objective in this scene? If the answers to those questions is yes, then you are entitled to take the stage and the audience is time. If you have not done those things, then you are a professional actor and you know what you need to do to get ready. So if you're ready, you're entitled. Take the stage and do it. If you're not ready, go away and work. There's no confidence, confidence doesn't come into it. Either you're entitled to it or you're not. And I always remember that it was a very kind of powerful moment, and he went on stage and he was a fantastic Macbeth and he did a great job. And he was one of the people in my year who was really kind of forever changed by drama school. His personality really was reconstituted pretty much in that moment. It was a very powerful experience and I'll always remember that.

Posadas:
Absolutely. And we're gonna, that's such solid advice and we'll, we'll like start digging into it and here how you applied that methodology to your practice as a creator. I think it's amazing how that like really like, you know, was really deep in your memory and then it's just turned you into the creative you are today. And I love that this is part of your method of overcoming doubt. And it's really about strengthening your relationship with your practice, not your 1.3 million subscribers. And the core part of that is establishing similar criteria for each video you put in the world. Can you share what those are and how did you pick each one?

Abi:
Yeah, yeah, sure. So this wasn't how I started out, but in the last few years I've tried to have three criteria for when I'm happy with the video and if it fulfills those three criteria, then I've got, okay, I'm gonna leave. It doesn't matter what the feedback is, doesn't matter what the numbers it did, it's about these three criteria and they are, was it made from curiosity, not ambition, did I make it out of compassion for myself and others? And is it my unique creative vision? And if it fulfills all of those three, then I'm happy with it.

Posadas:
That's great. And is there, like, in terms of like you saying that it took time for you to figure out to get to this place, is there a particular reason why you picked each one?

Abi:
Yeah, so curiosity, not ambition was definitely something they taught us at drama school. Again, that was another one of those phrases I'll always remember because if you go into an acting career or even a single audition and you are acting out of ambition and then you will very quickly become bitter. And when you're bitter, you can't really act anymore. You can't really go into it thinking about your career because if you do, you're not thinking about the scene and the objective and what's happening in the moment. So you kind of have to let all that go and just play, just explore the creativity and explore, you know, the character and in a creative voice. So I'll always remember that one. and I try and apply that to my YouTube videos as well. It's like, well, am I making something that's like maximal click bait? Is it gonna like get like a million views or whatever? I'm like, no, no. If I do, if I go down that road, if I chase that, then it's just not gonna be creatively fulfilling. I won't be making art then I'll be making content. The second one is, am I creating out of a compassion for myself and others? That's not just the content, it's also the process. So if I am absolutely flogging myself to death and working, you know, every hour that God sends, then I'm not working out of compassion for myself. If I am disclosing a whole bunch of like, you know, personal stuff in my videos, you know, I do sometimes get personal. I talk about how I feel about the topics we discuss, but I always make sure that I have processed those feelings and I understand them. So that I'm not just dumping my raw emotions on camera because that kind of thing does get a good response from the audience. People like it, but it's not sustainable. I've known creators who've just, they need something to fuel the fire. So they start, you know, cutting off their own limbs and burning them and it just destroys you. So, you know, compassion for myself is important. Compassion for others on Philosophy Tube, I have a rule, which is that I try to never say anything bad about anyone specifically. So if you go back and watch Philosophy Tube, you'll notice that I never go, John Smith, you are full of crap. This idea is a load of rubbish. Like this argument's absolute nonsense. And I don't do that. Even if I do critique an argument, I will always try to be as even handed as I can, as compassionate as I can to show my audience that even if this idea is really out there and like really bizarre and or perhaps even, you know, immoral, this is how a human being can come to believe it. This is how somebody can become emotionally attached to an idea. So I try to always create enough compassion for other people too. And the last one is just, is it my unique creative vision? Am I listening to my inner creative voice? Or am I going, oh, that person did that in a video. I'll copy that, I'll have that, I'll do a little bit of this. It worked for them, I'll do it too. No, I try and listen to my own creative voice and that doesn't preclude being influenced by other creators. Certainly, you know, or seeing, oh, like this person's structured their title in this sort of way and that's got a good response. So, you know, maybe I can try something similar too, but it's about the primacy of the inner creative voice.

Posadas:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Abi:
I suppose it's a kind of a way of restating curiosity and ambition really. But yeah, those are my three criteria.

Posadas:
No, thank you for diving so deeply into it. And I think it really takes it back to, you know, your commitment, you know, to stand by your principles and giving yourself permission to make and put content out in the world, you know, like that you are, you know, like you have this, you have something to say and you are entitled to be able to share it. And also, like, I really like you leaning into like making sure it's sustainable and at least the three things keep you, you know, keep you true to yourself, you know, and also like, irrelevant of what the audience thinks. It's kind of like if you build it, they will come mentality. And I'm glad they've been coming slowly but surely. But I also, like sometimes, you know, sometimes you don't meet all your three criteria. Can you share a recent example where you may not have done that and why you think that happened and how you followed through with that?

Abi:
Yeah. Yeah. So the most recent episode of Philosophy, I won't sort of dive into what it's really deeply about 'cause you can go and watch it, but I don't think that I was perhaps as compassionate to other people as I could have been. There was a specific philosophical objection to one of the theories we were discussing, I read about and I thought, oh, this is good. It's a good point. And it in particular, it pertains to the way in which one of the philosophers that we've discussed has some particularly negative views about a marginalized group. And I thought, oh, should I mention this? Should I not? If I do that, it's kind of gonna involve like going out of the way for five minutes. It's gonna create, you know, this sort of weird pacing issue in the script. And in the end I just said, you know what, I'm just gonna go leave it. And I didn't mention the philosopher out loud and that that was the compromise. I rationalized it to myself with. I said, well, I'm not gonna mention his name out loud. He's, he's gonna appear in the citations, but I don't need to talk about him. So I don't need to talk about his sort of slightly repugnant views, or not even slightly, but, you know, some of my subscribers and some of my audience came back and they said, I'm in that marginalized group and I was sad that you didn't mention it. And I thought, oh, you know, I haven't made that out of maximal compassion for others. I should have thought about that. I should have found a way to make it work, even if it would've required a little bit more work. And even if it would've made the video as a technical piece of content slightly quote unquote, worse or created like a pacing issue, if this needs to be said and it does, then I should have found a way to do that. And every time I make a video, I do a post-mortem live stream on YouTube and I talk about the feedback that I received, and I talk about this. I talked about this issue in the post-mortem live stream and I thanked some of my subscribers for writing in and telling me that. And I thought, you know what? I don't think it has ticked all three of my criteria off, even though it was like a big hit, even though it did really well, could have had more compassion for others. I've gotta sort of stay up all night beating myself up about it, but it's just next time I sit down to write a video, I will just take extra time to remind myself of that one and be like, okay, let's just double check this time. Are we making it out of compassion for myself and others?

Posadas:
Yeah, this is an incredible example of how you stay accountable to yourself first and then also share with your audience and share that accountability with your audience. And I love that you do a postmortem livestream. I think that's really awesome. It's really beautiful and a holistic way to work, you know, and also that's why it's called a creative practice is that, you know, gotta keep going at it. And sometimes, you know, we pendulum one way or the other. So thank you for sharing all that. All right, let's change gears a bit, Ben, let's bring you back. Let's start off with a broad question. What is your relationship to doubt, especially as a creator, how has it changed over time, if at all?

Ben:
I'm just writing Abi's three anchor points there on the wall, so I keep referring back to them. Yeah, I mean, you know, the acting world and also, I mean the creative world in general, a lot of those anchor points are very relative to all of us, no matter what the medium is. So I find a lot of those definitely tend to be prevalent in music making as well. One of the biggest ones for me is external forces. So when I sit in the studio, it's just me. If I'm with the band it's just me and the band. But when we're making the music, you know, we're not online, we're not going through the comment boxes, we're not looking at past comments of other songs. We're just in that moment making that piece of art at that particular time. And the best, most pure creations we've ever I've ever been a part of are always when you have those external forces completely blocked out. So then, you know, the minute that that you start to think about, oh, well how's this one gonna be received? Or, you know, is this gonna be relative to what's popular now in music? Or now they have musicians jumping through all kinds of hoops to stay relevant on social media. So they'll tell you things like, oh, you know, your song needs to get right to the point in the first three seconds. You can't have an intro to a song anymore. So I'm like, well, what if the song needs an intro? Like I come from a school where like we would, you know, build the song up. So things like that, when you start to think about things like that, it can really rock the foundation of just feeling creative and letting that, that output flow freely. So a big one for me has always been, you know, trying to mitigate like those external forces as like the years have gone on. And just for some background on me, I'm 39, I'm about to be 40 in May. I've been doing this for 20 years. Basically I released my first like project in the underground when I was 20. I went on to a national MC battle on MTV when I was 19 in 2003. And I competed and won. And that was like the jumpstart to my career. But for the 20 years from then to now, the doubt that has crept in over the years has evolved. So it's also like a constant struggle. It's never like a one size fits all. You know, it's like, riding all these different waves over the years to go, okay, like, am I even good enough to get on a stage? Then that turns into, oh, are these records good enough to compete or am I, you know, am I good enough to make merchandise? 'Cause now we have to make merchandise to survive. Those like, doubt just kept evolving over the years. So it's really, the relationship to doubt now is just like, it's a fluid one in that it's kind of like having an internal dialogue. What we talked about in our preliminary conversation with Abi really struck a chord with me. It was almost like a little bit of a eureka 'cause I thought this and never really like focused on it. But Abi talked about having like that internal dialogue before she puts her videos out, and that really resonated with me 'cause I thought, yeah, you know what it is, it's all about having such a strong connection with yourself before you go out with whatever you're creating, you know. So like that really rang as like paramount to me and something that I feel I practiced, but when I heard it verbalized it, it was like, whoa, yeah, that's it. That's exactly what it is. Because a lot of people that I know that come to me that have issues with writer's block or just creating in general, they often don't have like a really good foundation with themselves before they get into offering their workup for critique. And if you don't like you or have a great conversation internally with you, then as soon as all that static comes in, you completely lose the focus, you know? So I feel like yeah, the relationship to doubt it continually evolves. So it's, you know, you always have to be ready for what that new doubt's gonna be, but a along the way as well. You just have to be really in touch with who you are, what brings you joy when you're creating things and what's gonna like get you out of bed to create the next thing.

Posadas:
Absolutely. And yeah, I definitely had the same aha moment. It was really lovely to talk with you all during our tech check early this week and kind of come with the aha that like, overcoming doubt is strengthening your relationship with yourself in order to strengthen your relationship with your creativity. You know, and one thing I wanna comment on is that like, and I totally believe that we have to get right with ourselves before we can like put things out in the world, but also the relationship of getting right with ourselves is a journey. It is not linear, it doesn't happen overnight and that's not fixed. It's fluid. It goes ebbs and flows. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's like, you know, like it's a long, it's a lifelong journey to get right with ourselves to be able to get right with our creativity. So thank you for being able to share that gem.

Ben:
Of course, of course. 100%.

Posadas:
So one thing I'd love for you to share with the audience is a method that has worked for you in prioritizing your creativity. It's something to do with your, with clear out the noise. You wanna talk more about that? And how that came to be and the impact it's made for you today as a creator?

Ben:
It first started out as like an anxiety, like, you know, tool to battle anxiety. Not so much even just greater doubt or creating in general. It just started as like, you know, like I said, I've been doing it for 20 years, so I was creating music when, you know, pre-social media, so really you were putting it onto a CD or vinyl or whatever and then pressing it out and then, you know, the responses came back way slower and way less intense than they do now. When you put it out now within hours you can be flooded with a stream of positive, negative and everything in between. So, you know, just social media in general because a lot of artists and a lot of creators and I know a huge portion of the people in the chat can relate. You have to do so many of the jobs now that, that used to be, you know, delegated out to, you know, a team of people. So many people are their own graphic designer, you know, their own recording engineer, their own video videographer, you know, so all these things you get, you can get really, you know, overstressed, overstimulated, burnout is a thing we talk about a lot. So I started basically just saying, okay, you know what, I'm gonna pick the slowest day of the week for my social engagement and I'm just gonna shut off all devices, you know?

Posadas:
Oh, it's hard.

Ben:
The phone, the tablet, the phone was a big one. The phone while I was like addicted to my phone, I mean, I'm still addicted to my phone, but was like, it was a problem at that at that point. And what I started to notice was when I would, I just picked Sunday, so I would say, okay, when Sunday hits at midnight, I'll just turn the phone off or computer or anything like that, anything that's popping notifications up at me, I would turn that off and then go from that midnight to Monday morning and then Monday morning I'd boot it back up, catch up on notifications and then get back to work. And it was helping a lot with the buildup of anxiety that would happen. I also didn't, I like, I picked Sunday 'cause it was a slow day. So it kept me, you know, kept me out of the FOMO category where I was like, oh, what am I missing? Like everything's happening around me and I'm not there to be there. Sunday, Sunday felt like a good day. I don't know, it could be different for everybody, but for me it was Sunday. And then that basically left me freed up to relax, clear my mind. And then what I noticed is when I would start coming back into the fold, I wouldn't even go right back to the social media on Monday. I would sometimes just take it easy, go and get, you know, do what you gotta do but keep those notifications off until you're full and ready. And I would start to just create and that that it started to feel like a lot more lightweight, the pressure of everything else, you know, that comes on top of you trying to create. And I ended up enjoying a lot of those times and finding them highly creative and more fluid than previous sessions because I had taken that break and it sounds like something that's so simple and a lot of people will just fob it off 'cause they're like, yeah, whatever, take a day off it's, man, it sounds like nothing. But it really did have a severe impact and it was super helpful for me to just clear my head at least one day a week. You can do more if you feel you need more, but for me, just starting with one one day was fine. And then of course there's gonna be times when you can't do that. You can't, you know, it's not a, like you said, it's always evolving. So for me, we were on a record label for 11 years and the label helped us out with a lot of things. And then it came time where we reached our like glass ceiling and it was time for us to own our own music. I wanna pass this stuff down to my kids and I'm getting a little older, so I'm like, you know what, like, we're gonna go independent. So we went fully independent and since then, those Sundays are not phone off days, it's prep for the rest of the week schedule your-

Posadas:
Gotcha.

Ben:
So for the past like six months, I haven't been following that rule. So again, like it's evolving but I'm keeping it in check and I'm keeping it in sight to think, okay, you know what, like I gotta remember that that was helpful. And as soon as I feel that there's a window where I can switch back to that gear, I gotta be conscious to go back to that 'cause otherwise it builds up.

Posadas:
Absolutely. You know, it makes me think about my relationship to my meditation practice and sometimes I'll do, you know, I'll do like my own like, you know, like retreats with myself for like a day and a half. And one of the practices is at a turn off the phone and turn off social media, turn off all connections to the outside world. And like every time I do it, the cleanse, it's like afterwards it definitely impacts the way my relationship with devices afterwards, you know, I'm less likely to go, you know, less likely to, to check here and check there, you know.

Ben:
Absolutely. And it makes me, sorry, it makes me more appreciative and more less judgmental of people and less competitive. I'm super competitive just by nature and hip hop is a super competitive genre. Like I said, I was a battle rapper when I came up. That was the way that I broke into the scene. So I was just, by trade I was supposed to be criticizing other people you know, going up against other competitors. So what ended up happening was when I would go online, the minute I'd get on social media, I'd see another artist that occupied a space that I felt I could be in. And the feeling there, the negative energy there was toxic. Super toxic. 'Cause then I'd start, then I'd take that back into the studio and go, what can I make that'll get me to get what that guy has got? And yeah, that is, like Abi said, that's a horrible place to create for that that you're supposed to be creating for yourself. You know, you're supposed to be compassionate for yourself, compassionate for others. And those feelings are the polar opposite of that. So it, you know, I started realizing that when I took that disconnect from the social media, when I came back to it, I wasn't so like, triggered by some of those things. I'd see stuff and be like, oh cool, great for them. You know what I mean? And now I'm gonna focus on what I'm doing. And it took a little bit of the pressure off of trying to occupy everyone's same space.

Posadas:
And when we were talking last couple weeks ago, you were talking about how, you know, when you're in that spot, in that space, that toxic pull to social media, it's like when you feel the most unhappy, but when you're making music, what happens?

Ben:
Yeah, absolutely. When you make music and you're creating and you're not thinking about any of that stuff, you're not thinking about the algorithms and what's the best content, you know, format for the content and all that stuff. It's like the purest, most joyful place. It really, you know, if money was no object and we weren't making careers of this, I could easily just come in here and make music and just enjoy it and have no other concerns, you know? And that is the purest moment. That's when the best art comes out and that's when I feel the most joy from it. Then obviously if you're trying to make a career out of it, you gotta pile on these other things, but you gotta always remember that the purest place is there first. And then once we've created this beautiful art and then we can get out there and put our marketing hat on and do all the things that, you know, don't get us outta bed as much as the actual art itself.

Posadas:
Yeah. I really appreciate, you know, where you got to is that like, you know, cultivating joy. It's so basic and also like so necessary as to fuel for us as humans and creators.

Ben:
I feel like it's something that people, people hear often and they shrug it off 'cause it's just like, like same with meditation. Sometimes people say, hear it and go like, ah, I don't really know how I could do that or how it would help me. But it's something when you go through it and you really experience it can be really profound and really helpful.

Posadas:
Totally. Abi, do you have anything to say on all this? We've said quite a few things.

Abi:
It's just really beautiful to hear it. I really like the idea of having a day where you turn off all your devices. That sounds wonderful. I wish I could do that. And I definitely hear you when you say that it's difficult to not compare yourself to other people. I am sometimes a little bit guilty of doing that, especially with regards to acting when the, in the end there's only one actor who can get the job and sometimes you go, ah, yeah, you know, why, what did I, didn't I do a good audition? Why couldn't I play that role? And you just have to sort of let it go really as soon as you walk out the audition room, which is not always easy to do, you know, nine times out of 10 I walk out, I'm an audition, I'm just like, no, it's fine. I'm not worried about it anymore. I sometimes, sometimes look back and I'm like, did I audition for that? I don't even remember doing that. What did I?

Ben:
I would imagine that also helps you going into the next role 'cause you're not carrying that baggage with you to the next role.

Abi:
Yeah, it does. But sometimes there's an audition, I'm like, oh, I'm so anxious. I wanna know did I get it? Did I not, I think I did a really good job. And yeah, you know, sometimes you can't let it go and sometimes comparison happens. But I find that if I am trying to create something out of envy or comparison or ambition, then I sometimes imagine that my inner creative voice is like a tiny lady who lives in the woods. Like a tiny, tiny old lady, like a little studio Ghibli lady who kind of lives in a door in a tree in the woods. And I go to her and I'm like, do you have anything for me? And she'll go yes, here's the pages, here's the pitch talk for the new series, we're gonna pitch. I'm like, thank you very much, tiny lady. But I find that if I go to her and if I'm angry or if I go to her and I say, it has to be this, it has to be as good as this, then she doesn't open the door and so I can't do that.

Ben:
She sounds delightful.

Abi:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben:
I think that that negative energy is, you know, you can use it as fuel to create things, but often like it's not gonna get you to that place that you want to go with. You have to go in with like a positive outlook. And I've always felt that even when I like making moody music and I'm a quite happy person. I would say pretty optimistic and stuff. But I find that it's a good, like, you know, it fills a void because I often have a positive outlook, so I like to make sad songs sometimes and even, you know, angry music sometimes as well when it's fits. And even then I kind of, sorry, excuse me. I have to go in with more of a positive outlook. I can't go in gun's blazing because then the work suffers.

Abi:
Yeah, I think it's easy as well to go from one particular setback creatively, you know, you don't get the part or the song doesn't turn out the way you want. And from there, there catastrophize and go, this is because I'm a bad person, this is because I can't act, this is because I can't make music. It's very easy. I find to jump from things didn't go my way this time to, things will never go my way. I definitely go from zero to 60 like that sometimes. And I have to remind myself and go, how do I really believe that? Do I really think that if I don't get this role, my career is over? Do I really think there are no more roles? Do I really think this is never gonna happen? You know, am I not being a bit harsh on myself? And yeah, you just kind of have to dust yourself off and keep going I guess. Yeah, that's that inner dialogue that we talked about, that's that you're having that conversation with yourself and you have a great dialogue with you. So you guys don't often disagree in the end you talk it out and you go, yeah, this is what we want, let's keep it going. I feel like that is, yeah, that is so paramount for creating because otherwise you trip over your own feet.

Posadas:
I'm gonna ask one question just 'cause I feel like I've been seeing in a chat that's related to this topic, which is like, for people that have a hard time dusting off, for people who are struggling with that relationship with self and being able to like talk ourselves through it. What is like some nuggets of advice you can give for people who are still like, struggling with that, especially if they're early in their careers?

Abi:
Yeah, that's a tough one because I think that the thing that really helps is just experience. I realize that's a really annoying answer. Just go well because you fail a bunch and you survive and you keep creating. You know, I remember a couple years ago I released a video and it bombed by YouTube standards. YouTube tells you when, tells you out of 10 how well your most recent video did. And it was, that was down at number 10. It bombed. I worked really hard on it. I did, you know, put all my heart and soul into it ticked all three criteria and it still just crashed. And you know, people weren't interested, and I was really disappointed. In fact, I was so anxious and disappointed that I sort of killed up on the floor. I wanted to be sick. But you know, you survive and you fail a bunch and you survive a bunch and then, and you keep trying to do succeed a bunch and then you keep failing a bunch and you just sort of get used to it really. You realize that, you know, things don't get that bad.

Ben:
I think also two things I normally try to do one is, I'm sure this is kind of for every creative endeavor, but with finding success in creative endeavors, they also, they always say luck is one of the things and luck is completely out of our control. So, you know, that role that Abi might want, you know, there might've been two people up for the role and one day like that other person, you know, for whatever reason couldn't do it because you know their schedule. And then Abi gets the role because of that, that that's out of Abi's control. You know, oh, you went, you did the best job you could do. Or I went, put the best song out I could put, we had a single out some years ago and we're, you know, we're an underground hip hop based group. We put out a song, it was a relatively okay pretty good pop song I would say, but based in hip hop roots. And then they wanted to pitch it to commercial radio. And one of of the things you have to consider when you attack radio is you have to spend a bunch of money. You have to have the proper song at the proper time. And one of the proper time considerations is you have to know what else is out there. And at the time, Ariana Grande or somebody massive had a song out that eclipsed us even getting the remote amount of plays we needed to go to the next level. So then the label said, nah, we're not gonna put any more money on this. And I couldn't control that at that moment. Another huge artist had a song that totally dwarfed ours, so it's just like, there was nothing we could really do in time in in terms of that. That's outta control. So I always try to focus on that to think, hey, like no matter what, I made that video that was great and it happened to be 10 of 10, but there's just, you know, there might be elements there that I are unexplainable by me out of my control and that helps me dust off. 'Cause then I go, I did everything I could do. I'm gonna try and take nuggets that I can learn for the next thing and go move on. And then hopefully the wind blows in my favor better for the next one, which always kind of helps me go to the next thing.

Abi:
Yeah, same. I really relate to that. Like I've missed out on acting parts because I'm too tall. Like I'm six foot one and my voice and my face means that I often get put up for roles where I'm playing or I would be playing like the girlfriend or the love interest or you know, the romantic lead. And they don't like it if you're taller than the man. And a lot of men are, especially in the acting world, are shorter than six foot one. And so they'll go, "Abi did a great audition, but you're too tall, there's nothing we can do about it." Or, you know, in this scene you are supposed to be intimidated and you know, powering and it's just not gonna work because you're six foot one and you've got should like Sigourney Weaver. No one's gonna believe it." I'm like, okay, fair enough. You know that when next time, you know, the part will come around and they'll need somebody to play on Amazon or something and I'll play the Amazon, it's fine.

Ben:
And then, yeah, and then that role does come around. Like, I feel like sometimes people shut down after that. That is a thing that happens. Like some people, even though that's out of their control, they go, oh me and those me and this height that I have, and then they shut themselves off and miss the next opportunity. That was a role that was specifically tailored for that height. You know what I mean? Like, it's almost like you go in with that attitude and then you're open to see the next opportunity. Whereas a lot of times I've seen people, especially in music, fall out of the game completely because they get so shut down that then they miss that next opportunity that goes right by their face because they're feeling so sorry for themselves at that moment. And I've always felt like keeping the eyes open and going like, all right, what, well, I'm just gonna look for the next opportunity has helped us gain some of our best advances in our careers because of that.

Posadas:
Yeah, Well I feel like we can keep talking forever and this has been so awesome. I wanted to make sure we have a little bit of time to get some questions from the audience. So I think we have about, I don't know, like 14 minutes for Q&A from to our guests. So if you wanna participate, share your questions in the chat, up vote it with the up arrow emoji, your favorite questions, and I'll do my best to bring the most popular questions to the stage. So let me see if I see any questions. The first one I have is if you haven't joined, oh, sorry, let's see. The self-publishing, just something that's related. Any, how do you deal with burnout? That's the one I just saw from Andrew, Andrey, how do you deal with burnout, y'all?

Ben:
Oh, well Abi, you wanna go first or you want me to?

Posadas:
It's a small topic. Let's go.

Abi:
Well, I think prevention is definitely better than cure when it comes to burnout, touch wood, I haven't had like a proper big burnout where I've just gone. I can't create anymore. You know, I say touch wood in 10 years I haven't ever had a full on breakdown over that. There have been bumps on the road. But I find it's useful. I guess because I have Philosophy Tube and I have Patreon, but also I have, you know, my acting and also I have my screenwriting and also I have my stage writing. So I find that if the little spirit in the woods isn't giving me any notes about Philosophy Tube, then I go, okay, little old lady, do you have any notes for me about, you know, this Stevie series we're working on? Or do you have any notes for me about that other thing we're working on, she goes, oh yeah, she know I do have something here for that. Come back later and maybe I'll have something for you with this. So I find that having more than one creative outlet really helps stave off burnout. and also I've guess I've gotten to know my mind and my body fairly well over the last 10 years as a creative. And so I know where I'm sort of, I know when I am too close to the edge and I know when I'm burning the candle at both ends and I need to kind of ease up a little bit.

Ben:
Absolutely. Yeah, I was gonna say, often what I find helps is walking, you know, just walk just as something as easy as just walking away for a minute. For years I used to tell people, just fight through it, and then I started to find that I was like you, I had long stretches where I didn't really feel a proper burnout. And when I did finally start to feel those feelings, I found it was better to either walk away completely and do something radically different. Whether like, you know, sometimes people take for granted that creating involve some sort of fuel that you need to put in the tank, which is living life in general. You know, you can't just create all the time without at least going out and seeing something or doing something or, you know, just even as something as simple as going into the city or downtown or wherever, and just people watching, kind of seeing what's going on around you. You'll find inspiration if you just stop for a minute. And I always found that really helpful. So just taking that break is good. And to go back to what you just said, Abi, switching gears is also super helpful. Like, I do a podcast, I do music, I do video editing as well, all because of, you know, necessity. But I do enjoy creating in each one of those different facets. you know, for instance, making music, producing actual beats is a completely different gear than it is to write lyrics for a song. So sometimes when the lyrics aren't really coming, it's nice to just sit and mindlessly, you know, tap on drums and try to make a beat and I won't go back to the lyrics for a while. So diversifying the creative outlets that you have, I've definitely also found to be super helpful, because then, you know, it's just like kind of washing your hands, going your way for a little bit and then coming back after you've done something else creative in a different light that helps you when on that main thing you're trying to do or you, or where you find the burnout.

Abi:
I'll tell you what else I really like. I like going to the gym. I kind of usually gets my brain sorted. Sometimes I just be like, oh, I'm really stressed. I just, I love going on the elliptical. It just rotate. Just get your body, just rotate it round and round, do some press-ups, just, you know, listen to some music, get it all out. It's useful.

Ben:
Absolutely.

Posadas:
There's another question that I like that got lifted from before, I don't if I'm saying this right, ynysdyn. It says, what do you do when the doubt comes from feeling pushed out of a space? How do you tell the difference in space that isn't right for you? And when it's maybe bringing, when it's you maybe bringing something negative to the space. Just another light question to ask you.

Abi:
Yeah. So I do struggle with this one a fair bit. So listeners who weren't already aware, I'm trans and in my country, the entertainment industry is entirely dominated by cis people. Every director, every producer, every reviewer is cis. Every TV and film commissioner, every head of every newspaper and production company, it's entirely cis people. It's very, very common to go to see a play in the West End or to turn on a TV show or a film, and the entire cast will be cis. And that's so thorough that, that a lot of cis people don't even notice it. So it's very tough sometimes. And there are some people, people are shocked to hear this. There are theaters and people in TV and film who in my country do just refuse to work with me because I'm trans. That is illegal, but they do it anyway. I've had theaters straight up tell me, we don't work with trans writers. No, no, we're not doing, we don't cast trans people. We won't do it. Which, which is illegal. But you know, there's not a whole lot I can do about that. So I definitely know how you feel if you feel like you're not welcome in a space. However, you know, I have an academic background. My first degree was philosophy, and I derive a lot of comfort from being right. So I mean, I do, you know, I'm very comforted about being correct. It's a thing that I like to be. So if somebody says, I won't work with you because of the way you were born, then I say, okay, well that's got nothing to do with how good my work is. And kind of more fool you really, I'll find somebody who isn't that foolish and I'll work with them. And unfortunately there are, you know, I've got good people around me, like my agent and the creative people that I like to work with who recognize that, that the way that you're born shouldn't matter for the art that you make. If anything, it could only really be an advantage. Yeah, I know what you mean.

Ben:
Did you find that it became easier when you started to build your own, you know, like say Philosophy Tube for instance, like when you started to build your own avenues and accrue your own audience, did you then find it easier to get work at all? Or did you, you know, sometimes people find, yeah, they start to build the shop themselves because they feel pushed out by any group. And then when they start to build it, then the people, even the people that would've denied you the work before go, oh, 1.2 million followers, yes, we'd love to work with you today, it'd be great. You know, and then you have the the right to say, oh, no, I'm good with you. I'm gonna move on, or I'm doing my own thing. So I feel like sometimes, you know, yeah, it's once you start building your own avenue, that that can be really helpful to not deal with those people.

Abi:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean the people who who've shut me out previously haven't come back yet, but I have found that building my own audience has opened new doors. So my play that I wrote last year succeeded, did very, very well in large part of thanks to my YouTube audience, and the success of that has gotten new people involved. So, you know, now I'm talking to producers who are like, oh, hey, we saw how well you did, like, tell us about this. I found in particular, they're a lot more willing to do that in the US So I'm building up relations relationships with producers in the US now who are like, oh, hey, we saw this big success and you know, in some ways the UK is a little bit behind, but yeah, it does open up.

Ben:
Shocking to hear.

Abi:
Oh yeah, that is nothing, that is nothing. We could get seriously talk, but we won't.

Ben:
I forgot to tell you in our prelim conversation, I was actually born in England. My mother's British was born in, yeah, I was born in Surrey. No, I love them, but my dad still lives there. But yeah, it's weird how when I was, you know, when I, you know, almost 40 years ago now, when I was born there, how radically different it was. Not to get off topic too far, but how radically different it was and how it's changed now. and that statement would've never entered my mind 40 years ago, you know, or when I was a child. Now hearing that is like, that's shocking to hear. That's unfortunate.

Abi:
Well, I just gotta keep making good stuff, you know?

Ben:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I talked to Posadas about this too, while we're on this topic, the genre that I'm primarily in is hip hop. Hip hop's not an old genre compared to all the others. So what you're experience, what we're experiencing now as a 40 year old hip hop artist is ageism is kind of a thing, you know, when it comes to hip hop, a lot of times it's a very young art form. People haven't seen, people are only now just starting to see artists entering their fifties, sixties, even up to their seventies. So, you know, it's a weird space to be in because the genre is so primarily like jazzed up by a younger audience. So then when you get to middle age and start to turn that corner, it's you, I've had a weird battle with like, do I have to change what I'm doing or how I look? Or like, these things all like, also feed into that doubt cycle when you're online, because, you know, I've been on the road and people have met us, loved our show, and then gone after like, how old are you anyway? And I'm like, well, I'm 35, and they go 35, and I'm like, what? What's wrong with their, you know? So it's like the ageism thing has been a big, like, feeder of doubt for us approaching these later years, because it's unprecedented in that genre. So I find like, again, closing off from those windows and just being like, I just make work and I just make art and music that I feel that I love and some aspects of that music might not be the trendiest, but that's not really why I'm making it. I'm making it because it moves me. and if you enjoy it, then come on, hang with me, and that's cool. You know, and if you don't, that's fine too. It's all good. So, you know, that prevents any of those roadblocks from building up the creative process.

Posadas:
I think we have time for one more question, and this is kind of related to all we're talking about, something we talked about earlier about failure. So this is from Kyddo asking, what do you do when you get called out for a mistake you made or something you failed to approach appropriately or correctly, or an extreme case you get exposed for not being the way people perceived you be, because like, fans will always have a higher view of you. But I feel that if they actually got to know the real me, they'd be like, oh, they're not as really as awesome as I thought. Content creator of me is cool, but well, but the real me is, well, not as cool. Any thoughts on that?

Abi:
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do, I have some thoughts on that. I guess it depends in what form the call-out comes. Like if it's constructive criticism, then I'm always welcome that on Philosophy too. But I have the postmortem live livestream specifically to address constructive criticism. If somebody is coming at me with abuse or aggression, then I have like a total zero tolerance policy for that. Just completely block it. If they're criticizing me for who I am or how I was born, then again, total zero tolerance that goes. Also, this is a controversial rule, but I don't, if somebody makes a YouTube video about me, I don't watch that video. Even if, and I'm aware that sometimes I miss out on like really good constructive criticism because of that, but I'm like, you know what, if you are making this as a piece of content for your audience, then I don't think I can like fully trust that you are like totally being constructive about this. If it's intended for your audience rather than for kind of me as an artist, then I just think the incentives that the dynamics there are are potentially gonna mess things up. And also, you know, sometimes people, especially on Twitter, will misunderstand what you say and get very, very upset about it. This happened to me. Recently happened less than a month ago. And I had a very bad week on Twitter with, you know, thousands and thousands of people getting really upset at me. But I, again, with an activate background, do derived some comfort from being right. And if somebody misunderstands what I say and gets angry, then really they're upset at the thing they've created in their head, they're own misunderstanding. So really, like the fault and the mistake and the harm is with them, not with me. So I'm trying to get better about just sort of letting that go. Really, if somebody's not coming at me with constructive feedback, then I can go, okay, well there's plenty of people who will, and by listening to them, I get better. But by listening to people who come at me with nonconstructive feedback, I only make myself sadder, which doesn't help me get better.

Ben:
95% of the comments you're gonna read online are coming from a place of projection. They're coming from people's experiences, whether good or bad, for better or for worse. So I found that going over the years, you have to really, I have artist friends who always read the comments and I have artist friends who never read the comments. And you have to identify like, I feel like it's a good, it's good, and it's, you can do it either way. and either way is fine, neither way is wrong. But you have to identify within yourself, am I the person that can grow a thick enough skin to take negative feedback or take even, you know, disrespectful comments without completely folding in or having it disrupt to your creative process? Or am I the kind of person that goes, no, I'd rather just pretend like that's not even there and let me not go into that section. And then you can operate how you feel you wanna operate from there. I found a lot of times that another thing that I try to keep in mind is the, you can read 50 positive comments. Oh, that new thing you did amazing. It's so great. Changed my life. Oh, well, it's wonderful. And then one person comes in and goes, like, you're ugly. Or says something completely like unrelated nonconstructive, whatever it is. And then you go, oh, my video was , where it completely breaks you down. And I always try to remind myself those, letting that get you is such a trick, you know, it's a trick the devil plays where it's like, why did that one negative comment have more power than 20 or 50 positive comments? So I always try to like, you know, feel almost defensive to not let that mechanism click in because that negative comment is one comment that is probably not even really related to the work. And 50 people before that loved the work and said all this great stuff.

Abi:
So real.

Ben:
Yes, so when you read that negative one or you know, that one that makes you feel a certain way, reverse back and go over the positive ones that are there. And always, like Abi said, keep in mind that they're projecting. It's not really you, it's what they, how they see the work, how the work makes them feel, what insecurities they may have. Maybe they wanna do what you're doing, you know, maybe they feel competitive or jealous and then that sparks them to lash out at you. And then you just have to like go, all right, well, you know, oh, precious you, good luck with all of that you know, keep it moving on in your own world.

Posadas:
For sure. Yeah, I feel like what this makes me think is like relating it back to my meditation at practice practice and that like, you know, our minds like are, I believe our minds are inclined towards the negative, and the practice is really about inclining our minds to the positive. That's why we clinging onto that one comment instead of like, really being anchored by the 50 awesome comments, you know, so, well, my friends, that is all the time we have for Q&A with for y'all, and we're gonna start wrapping this up, but this has been such a wonderful conversation. I cannot thank you enough for being here. And I have one final question for each of you before we head out. And let's start with Ben. Can you share the audience where we can find you and what's one thing you'd like to shout out? I heard maybe you just published something you're pretty proud of?

Ben:
Absolutely. Before I do that, I just wanna say, I've been on the Patreon ambassador program for this my second year. And the one cool, the coolest thing about taking part in events like this, or going to any of the CAP meetings or any of that is just like marveling at how wonderful and amazing human beings can be. Creating all these different things, you know, like I'm just in my little music world or whatever, but when you get on and then see people do this and do this and create these beautiful, you didn't even know were possible. So I'm super appreciative. Thank you Posadas, for having us. And thank you everybody for tuning in. Yeah, I'm in a group called ¡Mayday!, and you can check us out on socials. It's kind of weird to spell it because it has upside down exclamations, but if you put Mayday Music or Mayday Miami, you'll find us. And I'm on all the socials as Wrekonize, which is kind of spelled funky too, but you can see it here on the stage channel. I just dropped a new single called, "Line in the Sand." It's basically like envisioning the perspective of someone that's on the ground during a conflict, like the Ukraine, Russia conflict. It's not a political record. So much as to say I just sympathize with any human that has to be on the ground when these things are happening, regardless of what the politics are. So it's called, "Line in the Sand." If you wanna check it out, it's streaming everywhere. And I got a new video out for a song called, "Snowfall". So yeah, check me out and I hope you dig the music.

Posadas:
We put some of those links in the chat. And now, Abi, same question. Where can people find you and what's something you'd like to share that you're pretty proud of? Well, you can always find me on the internet. Philosophy Tube on pretty much everything, that's my show. I'm TheAbigailThorn on Insta and TikTok. You can see me if you'd like to see me in a Western. Then I'm in "Django", which is out currently on Sky. If you would like to see my play, "The Prince", you can find that on Nebula. It's about a bunch of characters in a Shakespeare play who start to realize that they're stuck inside a play and break out. I had a lot of fun doing it. So, yeah. I'm gonna be in a bunch of other things that I can't say at the moment, but you know, keep your eyes on your screens and I'll be there.

Posadas:
Awesome. And also, congratulations on all the awards for "The Prince". So exciting, We shared that in the chat. Now let's have a round of applause for our guests today. You've all been a fantastic audience. Thank you so much Abi and Ben for joining us, sharing your wisdom and time. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you both. Thank you so much for coming through.

Abi:
Thank you for having us.

Ben:
Thanks.

Abi:
It's been really lovely to meet you too, Ben.

Ben:
Likewise, likewise Abi, I'll be tuned into Philosophy Tube from here on out. Thank you.

Posadas:
And also to our audience, it's our reminder, the conversation isn't over. Our guest and some of the members of Patreon will stick around for their half hour. We're gonna go on the Hot Topics General channel and we can keep talking about doubt, and we'll aim to answer any remaining questions of the Q&A. So we'll be pulling questions from there and tagging our speakers and hopefully they're gonna be able to answer some of your questions. And this is also the same channel, the Hot Topics General, the channel where we'll post tomorrow the recording of the session and in two weeks an article with key takeaways from today's program. Also, this is also where we'll show relevant resources here. For example, we also recently published an article called, "Four Common Membership Doubts Dispelled." And it's published in Patreon's Creator Hub. And what is the Creator Hub you ask? It's a resource for creators on how to launch and grow on Patreon and connect with other creators. You should definitely bookmark it and check it out and do so often 'cause we're always sharing new content. And Rick Ben also mentioned being a part of the Creative Ambassador program at Patreon. As you all learn more about that ambassador program, you go to the Creator Hub and go to, as you can find it there and get more information if you'd like to be a part of that program. So thank you for everyone for coming and taking the time to complete our survey. We'll also be sending that to you on Splash too. Let's keep the conversation going in the Hot Topics General Channel for the next half hour. And let's give it up one more time for our amazing guests, Ben Miller and Abigail Thorn. Thank you so much with from along with all of you, our guests and the team at Patreon, let's leave the chat with applause and appreciation. Thank you again to everyone and we'll see you next time from all of us here at Patreon, take care. And we can't wait to see what you create.