On running a creative business with your life partner

Runner and coach David Roche co-hosts the podcast Some Work, All Play with his wife Megan Roche, MD. Both David and Megan have won running championships and earned the title “U.S. Trail Runner of the Year.” On the show, the couple blends their enthusiasm for running with science, digging deep into subjects like training, races, studies, pop culture, and big life decisions, like whether or not or have kids.

In this episode of Backstage with Patreon, David discusses what it’s like to work with his spouse (communication is everything!) and shares encouraging lessons and metaphors from the world of sports that translate to life at large, as well as running a creative business. “Start it,” David says. “You never know what’s going to happen till you start.”

Subscribe to Backstage with Patreon on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or directly via RSS. Join the discussion about the episode in the Patreon Creator Community Discord server.

Episode transcript

Brian Keller:
Hello, creators. You are backstage with Patreon where we open the curtain on how to build a thriving business on Patreon. I'm Brian Keller from the Creator Success Team, and today's guest is David Roche, who co-hosts the Some Work, All Play podcast with his wife Megan. Their show blends high performance running with their unique perspective as athletes, coaches, and a married couple. In their running careers, they have each one US Trail Runner of the Year and are multi-time national champions. Their business also includes a running coaching practice of the same name. They joined Patreon in May 2022 after passing a hundred episodes of their show. They are able to not just manage making a podcast and having a new baby together, but truly love doing it. Let's get started with David Roche on Backstage with Patreon. And let me start by saying one cool quote I heard about how you two describe your show because that it blends positivity, ridiculousness, and sexy science. That's crazy. What is that all about?

David Roche:
Yeah, actually I was stumbling on the thing no creator should ever do and that is looking at reviews and just today a review popped up that said the hosts are a lot, but it was a five star review, so I feel like we'll take it. Basically we just try to come on there with enthusiasm every week for life, for running, which is a small part of it, and the science aspect of it since Megan is an MD PhD at Stanford and I have a science background as well, so it's just so fun to get to chat about things that sometimes blend the high performance running side and sometimes we're talking about random things about politics or really important things like inclusion in sports and transgender athlete rights. And so basically we just always viewed a podcast as a chance to be our true authentic selves to anyone who wants to listen. And then Patreon as ended up being a wonderful extension of that.

Brian Keller:
Now, were you having these kind of conversations yourselves and felt like you wanted to give it to an audience and you had people asking you to turn this into a podcast?

David Roche:
Yeah, I mean a little bit of that. When we started, our mission statement was to make it kind of being at a dinner party with us in the sense that we love humor. We're obsessed with comedy ever since we were little kids and we have some outlets for that in our lives. We write a lot, but it's a little bit more stilted and you have to be a little careful. But the fun thing about a podcast medium is you just go out there and say whatever you want. Any dick joke that comes to your mind is great.

Or even better for us, we like to work on bits during the week with each other and occasionally they'll make it on. So that was the main impetus for it. When we first started the podcast, it was just 20 to 30 minutes because our lives were pretty busy. It started a couple months into the pandemic when everything was just, there was nothing going on. And then it took on a life of its own and we just ran with it as we went, but we never had a plan for what it would look like other than hopefully getting to spend time with each other and have a date every week that's planned into the schedule. And that part has been so freaking fun.

Brian Keller:
And on that topic, there are a bunch of Patreon creators who are couple spouses, partners, and I think for some people it can really bring them closer and be a great experience for those. It can be trying on the relationship to add that part to it. How do you two manage?

David Roche:
I think it's been so good to create together because every relationship relies on communication. The talking is obviously part of it, but then also just thinking about the directions you want to go over time requires so much communication because even though we present similarly sometimes, we're incredibly different people with unique stories and ways we want to present to the world. And she's in professional context that are a little bit more intense than mine in terms of what they might be expecting in terms of formality. And so just upfront communication about everything has seeped into the rest of our relationship.

And I think it's been the best thing in the world for us. And I mean that's essentially the only advice I ever have for married couples doing anything or any relationship in life is just communicate the hard things, which I struggle with so badly because it'll make things way easier. And so having test runs for a podcast made it so much better for things like children. In fact, in 2021, we debated on the podcast whether we would ever want children. I never ever wanted kids. And we spent 20 minutes back and forth on the podcast debating it, and she convinced me on the end of that discussion. And now we have almost a three-month-old now. So the podcast paid off in more ways than one.

Brian Keller:
Well, you really are having those tough, vulnerable conversations live with your audience.

David Roche:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was always the one that was like, I just don't see the appeal of kids and now I still don't see the appeal of kids. I see the appeal of our kid, so I want to be specific. Everyone says, "Oh, I had a kid and everything. It dawned on me." It's like I'm still not there, but I do love this little pooping machine.

Brian Keller:
That's awesome. All right, so you'd gotten some good traction with your initial podcast, building an audience there. What led you to that decision to consider membership and then start on Patreon?

David Roche:
So we had always supported a bunch of Patreons. Some of our favorite creators are on there, the Ginger Runner, Patreon, Ryan Van Duzer, Patreon. So Ginger Runner does running live streams and videos. Ryan Van Duzer does bike packing videos and even if you don't bike packing or biking that much, which is me, it's such a great vibe. And his Patreon is just like that. I recommend everyone that's listening go support Ryan Van Duzer and Ginger Runner, but a number of others too.

And so we always knew there was something there, but also just it seemed like a lot of work and never really wanted to take that leap. And then got an email from Patreon and Todd there essentially just let us know, "Hey, it's easier than you think. You can just set it up. If it works, great. If it doesn't, it's also great." And it was just a really, honestly, it seemed like a really cool company and the people we dealt with there. So we're like, oh, let's give this a try because we do really like it. And so then just launched it and decided to commit to it. This was going to be something where we're actually trying to create there, not just use it as a place for donations.

Brian Keller:
And tell people a little bit more, what is the kind of bonus content, the kind of benefits that you're putting together for your members?

David Roche:
So essentially the big bulk of it is we have a $5 tier and a $10 tier. The $5 tier is a bonus podcast every week that's shorter and much looser because on the main podcast, we're very science-based like we always have. Like 30 studies coming in with exactly an outline of what we want to talk about. On the Patreon podcast, we just respond to questions from Patreon listeners, which is really cool because you get down into the weeds of what's going on in people's lives. Sometimes it's about running. Last week it was about death and digging into our feelings on that and how it might have changed with a kid and it creates this back and forth that's really nice.

And then for a $10 tier, we also do weekly science posts that dig into a little bit more details on theory. But even while it's digging into more details, it's not quite like the things we might put publicly because it's very conversational and honest in ways that you want to be necessarily if it's in The New York Times or something. So those two things have been great and we've seen steady growth over time, which has been super cool. And I think it's partially that we just keep showing up. And the hardest part was definitely the initial vulnerability of saying, "Hey, this thing's online." And then being like, why is it still say zero or one or whatever. And that was definitely the hardest part.

Brian Keller:
What did you find most helpful in doing that kind of promotion, reaching out to your audience, encouraging them to join you?

David Roche:
So after a while, and we just realized you know what, if you're not going to pimp yourself, no one is. So we just use every opportunity to throw it out there. On the podcast each week, we'll almost always throw a question in that is from the Patreon listeners and mention it and talk about what we do there each week. Just briefly, make it fun. That's the other thing, never just have it be a throwaway asking for, be like, "Hey, support me here." Always try to bring it into a fun conversation. And then every time we post our stuff on social media or whatever, when it's reasonable at the bottom, we'll just put a link to it so that it's just on people's heads. Because I heard, I wasn't sure if it was from someone from Patreon, but essentially people need to hear things like 10 times before they even consider making that next step.

So we just want to build it in to the background of everything. With the main idea being that hopefully if someone comes on, they have fun with it and they think it's a valid use of their money, not just to support us if they like us, but also because we're giving them something in return because it's a lot of money. And then also what we try to do is if people have financial constraints, we'll share it with you in other means. So the one thing I'm always encouraging Patreon to do is eventually, if you can get us to gift some subscriptions, I think it'll be better at the community building part of it, which is so key I think for some of the bigger Patreon groups.

Brian Keller:
We know that's a big demand in use case for our creators. We're working on it. I hope we'll have more to announce soon on gifting and those [inaudible 00:09:12] members too.

David Roche:
I know when I say something like that, it's probably a thousand coders would have to work for 40 days to figure out even a way to make... I always know these things are way more complicated than it seems from the outside. So I respect it.

Brian Keller:
And I know one of the things you've really emphasized for your Patreon page are annual subscriptions, and we have some creators who have thought about doing it, are maybe nervous about that. How did you think about incorporating that, the commitment around it and then what it's done for your membership business?

David Roche:
Oh, I mean, I just know with myself. The number of times I lose my credit card and cancel things is so high that having some sort of annual fee is always best for me personally, so that I don't just get cut off and have to lose all the things that I care about subscribing to. Sometimes it's good because I realize I'm subscribed to streaming services I haven't watched in six months, but that type of thing of just a steady like, hey, here's your commitment at the outset, you get some sort of discount. We just used whatever Patreon recommended. I think it was 10% or something has been really helpful. And I think just anytime you have a monthly fee, our business is based on a monthly fee in coaching and things, there's always a little bit of a concern as you're starting out, everything's going to crumble at any point, even if it's not going to. And having an annual fee, at least for us, took some of that worry away.

Brian Keller:
Right. Makes sense. Well, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you a question or two about running and in your expertise there, we might have some folks that are avid runners, think about getting into it for health reasons. For someone who's really an amateur but wants to make it more their habit, what kind of things would you suggest?

David Roche:
So the weird thing about running is that you don't need to do much of it for it to become so much better, but you need to do it consistently. I think there's a tendency to be like, oh, a run only counts if it's a certain number of miles. And what we tell people, this is not just people that are just starting out or have trouble with running, this is also professional athletes, is that five or 10 minutes counts. It's a lot different than something like cycling where you don't have the mechanical loading. In running, you have so much loading on your body that eventually gets really nice and easy and feels great, but it takes that constant brick in the wall, brick in the wall, brick in the wall. So for an athlete that might think, oh, running sucks. Well, first, try to run five times a week and it can be 10 minutes at a time with some walking on either end.

And if you're able to get past those initial adaptation processes, your body's going to feel so much better. And the benefits are outsized compared to any other sort of endurance sport because of the loading. The loading makes it just the way the body responds is so much like a 10-minute run can sometimes be equivalent to 45 or 60 minute bike and how much adaptation it brings, especially at first. So do that and don't be afraid to go slow, can be just above walking pace. Again, because it's all based on the loading. That loading is going to be happening as you cover a certain distance no matter how fast you're doing it. And for most people, their heart rate will go so high when they start running it first that it becomes essentially, like we talk a lot about lactate, which is a fatigue byproduct within muscles.

If you measured their lactate, it would be someone that races on the track doing an all out mile, even though they're going out on an easy run. Of course it's not going to be fun at that point. So don't be afraid to slow down, do short runs, do them a lot. And running can be incredibly transcendent. But there is an initial adaptation period where, as one of our guests said, Alex Honnold, world-famous climber, running is heinous. And that's the part you want to avoid because if running does feel heinous, of course you're not going to love doing it.

Brian Keller:
Awesome. Well, that's a very special guest that you're able to drop in there too for people that are familiar with Alex Honnold.

David Roche:
Well, it's so cool. So we're huge fans of climbing, just we don't do it at all. And like everyone else in the world, Free Solo is one of our favorite movies ever. And Alex had done a 50k trail race, so just in his spare time he went out and did an ultra. Because he is Alex, he finished sixth, he's a remarkable athlete. But he listened to our podcast and because of that, when we reached out, he was like, "Sure, I'll be on it." So it was very funny and it was really one of those through the looking glass moments because when we started, like everybody, you're starting, you're talking into the abyss, no one's listening. And then eventually you're like, "Alex Honnold's listening." And that was wild. And one of those things that, I don't know, you never can forecast. And that's why I always tell anyone who is thinking about these things, start it.

You never know what's going to happen until you start. And I think a lot of people validate their success through a prism that's just so unfair to themselves. It's like they see the most successful shows in the world and it's like, no, you don't need to appeal to 5 million people. You need to appeal to five people. And if you can do that, then some really cool things can happen. It can be so fulfilling whether it's financially beneficial or not, that the connection you can get through something like Patreon is huge. And now every week when we post a new podcast episode, we'll also post our regular episodes that are for everyone on Patreon and just say something. Every week we get comments that are just absolutely fill your heart, also challenge you in ways. And it's like, oh well that community part, that's the part that Patreon does that I don't know how else we would do in a scalable fashion in the current landscape.

Brian Keller:
When you had that big guest coming on and you made that connection, how did you approach it? Was it any different? Were there any nerves going into it?

David Roche:
We were definitely nervous, but nervous in the sense of technology failing. Our thing at this point in our lives is just be relentlessly authentic to whatever you are. For us, that's being often very silly, often very serious, but most of the time pretty darn silly. And as a result, I think that's what Alex saw on us that he likes because Alex is one thing about him is he's an incredibly funny guy and I think a lot of the ways that he's been portrayed after meeting him, it's like that's a little unfair. He's just very smart. He works so hard that the things he does are not unthinkable anymore.

It's no different than us doing things that are somewhat challenging to us. And when he was on there, he played ping pong with us with the dumbest jokes and things. And I don't know, that's one of the most fun parts of having done all this is when you put yourself out there enough in different ways, you realize that, oh, there is nothing to lose, especially nothing to lose when you're talking about being yourself and whatever that specific thing means in being yourself, learning to put it out there and learning to love yourself even when you might get some negative feedback. I think it's the most magical thing about being at all vulnerable in a public sense with a microphone in front of you.

Brian Keller:
I love that. Another theme I know you have on your show is about recovery from physical endurance and all that. And even for folks that aren't runners or athletes in that way, love if you could talk a little bit about that because I think people can apply it to any passion and effort that they have that can need that kind of recovery effort.

David Roche:
Such a good question. The quote I like that applies to everything in life if we make it a metaphor is the body doesn't know miles, it knows stress. And so this stress framework of how someone thinks about their lives are so important. Obviously it applies to running or any sort of athletics. It also applies to things like doing a podcast to things like a work presentation, raising a kid. All of these things fill up a stress bucket and if your stress bucket overflows, it won't freaking matter what little things you do. There's so much talk online nowadays about things that are body hacks, things that people do with their diet that are really weird or ice baths or all that. It's like, okay, fine if you get fulfillment from it. But really it all just comes back to the baseline levels of stress that someone's under.

So for us, we try to really manage stress for the athletes we coach and talk about what that looks like, really emphasize eating enough food. In running in particular, there's been a scourge of coaches that have caused athletes to do really negative things to their body. And it's superstition masquerading a science because all the science says eating enough always is the most important thing for your endocrine system. So your hormones and your nervous system, and if you don't, everything will eventually go to shit. It's just takes a little bit longer and sometimes the causation can be a little bit more difficult to parse out in someone's life. So eating enough always is incredibly important. And then mainly taking time to just laugh, relax, do things that you enjoy. So the element of doing things you enjoy I think can sometimes be lost in the context of a busy life.

And we want all of our runners for that running to be that thing. But if it's not for someone that listens to this, great, find other things and do them just as passionately as we're talking about running. We like it only as a metaphor. Running, as Alex said, can be freaking heinous. And even at his very best, it's inconsequential. But that's every little passion we have when you look at the scepter of death or something that waits on the other end. So as a result, just dedicate yourself fully to something that you're sure doesn't matter, but gives you a little bit more purpose each morning. And I find that that really helps this breakdown than rejuvenation recovery process take shape over time.

Brian Keller:
Well, you've alluded to your coaching practice a little bit. I want to hear more about that because I think a number of creators are trying to incorporate that coaching lessen those kinds of things on the side. How do you make that part of your broader creative business?

David Roche:
Yeah, so I guess the coaching came first and when we started the podcast, part of it was because coaching was essentially full. We weren't going to be expanding that part and still wanted to have opportunities to connect with people that we couldn't connect with every day. So for us, it filled that gap. And also just in terms of we had to turn away so many incredible humans from the coaching end, and now we get to interact with them, whether it's on Patreon or through the podcast or emails, all these other things that are just so fulfilling. But for everyone, almost no matter what the field, coaching is the coolest thing ever. My only advice on how to do it, and this is something that we talk about with, we help a lot of running coaches start their businesses just for friends for free.

And what we always say is daily communication is everything. So we set up essentially a Google... It's a Google spreadsheet, but a fancy one where every day you're back and forth with the people in a written fashion. And it creates an intimacy that no matter what field you're in, it can be so helpful. We've talked to business coaches that have adopted this style because it allows that closeness, that trust that can only come from, hey, this person's showing up for me this much. I know they're going to show up for you tomorrow. So that allows me to take more risks. So coaching is just podcasting, just like Patreon. It's all just about showing up and showing up sometimes when it's a little harder and being okay with your C plus game and not requiring yourself to be perfect all the time because none of us are.

Brian Keller:
That coaching is podcasting. Now how did you and Megan know that coaching was a good fit? Many people have a strong skill as an athlete or in an area, but they may not be the right fit for that kind of model.

David Roche:
Yeah, I mean, I was a lawyer at the time, and so Megan's background in sports science is a lot more direct to it, but I guess it was 10 years ago. Megan is the one that just said, "David, you get more joy out of other people's success than your own and you're pretty darn obsessed with the science of performance. You should definitely try this out." So Some Work, All Play, the name of it was just a random blog spot website I put up at the time just being like, "Hey, if anyone wants this, it's free." And much like I say about podcasting, there was no plan for it. There was no like this is going to be what I do. I thought it was just going to be something that I might get two or three people that I get to talk to every day.

And it grew beyond what I would've expected. And then Megan joined and that's what she does now too. And she's taken it to new heights. And I think it just points out that the same thing we tell athletes, I don't care where results lead because you have no control over that. When you look back and evaluate different processes in your life, the reason that they always ask, well, is it skill or is it luck? Is because it was always luck, every step of the way. Yeah, it takes hard work, but it's always luck. And similarly, you never know what shots are going to go in. And if you don't know what shots are going to go in, take a hundred shots no matter what it is. And the ones that go in, great, but the ones that don't go in will also teach you something.

And so this happened to be a shot that went in, and I think Patreon was similar. We opened it up and we were like, "I don't know about this. This feels really, really, really uncomfortable." We hate asking for things and this is the ultimate ask. And you know what? When we did it, people were like, "Oh, this is really cool. Thank you. This, we always wanted an opportunity to do this." And if it hadn't worked, it also would've been great. I'm sure there's tons of people that launch on Patreon and it just doesn't work for them. But the point is, then you learn that that's not your model.

So we've been saying everybody just get on Patreon, not because it's going to be a super beneficial thing financially, because I think you know the stats, I'm sure they're not across the board like that. It's just that by being on there, you get to learn so much about how you like to create, how to monetize your creativity or not. And that part of it's been just so fun and something we never could have foresee. And now we're like, heck, maybe this is a model for more media rather than less, more something broader even. And maybe a almost validation of something we always dreamed of, which is supporting other creators within a broader umbrella. And it's like we never would've figured that out otherwise.

Brian Keller:
That's amazing. Well, I wanted to end and ask you a little bit about having a kid. You had a kid during your run as a podcaster and a membership business here and hear a little bit how you and especially Megan manage that across the different responsibilities that you have.

David Roche:
We just bring them along. He's in the room for a lot of our recordings. It's fun. He coos on there sometimes. People seem to like it though we're a little careful to edit out some of the louder coos because audio mediums, I didn't realize how passionate people were about little background noises sometimes until I did it. Yeah, I mean so far he's only a few months old and I think at this point kids that age are basically houseplants that poop. So it's very fun to have him around. When he starts moving a little bit, it'll be a little bit tougher, but it's been great. We've had so much fun splitting responsibilities as much as you can. I give him a bottle while Megan pumps at night. And the podcast has been a way for us to have time together that we might have fallen by the wayside otherwise, especially within the context of other responsibilities.

So we're just like, well, I guess this is the ultimate benefit. Everyone that has kids is make sure you make time for your relationship and for us, we get to make time for our relationship and do it in a heightened state in front of a microphone where we're making each other laugh and having fun in ways that when we're sitting down at dinner, we might not be quite so heightened or perhaps we would be serial killers. So it's a fun dynamic and most of all, it's just been fun to have an adventure with this little kid, Leo. Leo stands for something that we thought about while we were doing the podcast through a totally different conversation. Leo stands for love each other and the podcast Patreon. All that has just been a commitment both to ourselves and then to the people that support us to love each other.

Brian Keller:
That's a beautiful way to wrap us up. So we've covered some great stuff around showing your personality, being authentic with your audience, how podcasting and being creator can be the secret to communication with your partner there. And also hopefully some great tips for people, whether they're athletes or in their own passions about how to get active in one way or another at it and how to make time and attention on recovery. So David, thank you so much for doing it. Any final things you wanted to added?

David Roche:
There's one thing I wanted to add because this is a totally different audience I assume than I might normally be exposed to, and I assume this is people that are really freaking smart with a lot of different backgrounds and that's be weird. Whatever your particular weirdness is I think especially in the professional world, especially in places like tech or law or medicine for Megan, it can feel very uncomfortable to do that because the societal inertia is not pushing in that direction.

Oh my gosh. Life opens up and so much light can flow in when you do allow whatever your genuine nature is to shine and no one ends up disrespecting you. And the people that do, they can go fuck themselves. You're going to find joy in that process and way more of your shots are going to go in if you just let whatever your own individual weirdness is out into the world.

Brian Keller:
Awesome.

David Roche:
And also love yourself because one thing that being a slight public figure in very small world, I'm talking on here like we have a big audience. We don't. We have a very small audience in the big scheme of things, but you're always going to get pushback and it's the best way to stress test your worldview and you're enough just the way you are.

Brian Keller:
All right. Well, David, thank you so much for sharing your story, your insights with fellow Patreon creators.

David Roche:
You're the best, Brian.

Brian Keller:
Tune in next week to Backstage with Patreon when we'll have Eric Fong on the show. He's Patreon's product manager overseeing the integration between Patreon and Discord. It's one of the most popular integrations for Patreon creators, allowing them to build community with flexible controls over the access of paid members and their wider audience. Patreon recently released a major improvement in how we keep active members in sync with Discord role access, and Eric will walk through how it works and how creators can make sure they're able to take advantage of the functionality.

To catch every episode of Backstage with Patreon, follow or subscribe in your podcast app and leave us a review. We also have transcripts available at patreon.com/backstage. You're growing as a creator by listening to the show, so why not share the insights from this episode with another creator on Patreon or who is running a creative business. We'd love to have you as an active collaborator with Backstage with Patreon. Come join the discussion in the Patreon Creator Discord. Follow the link in the episode notes and you can get answers to your follow-up questions directly from the guests and weigh in on what topics we'll be covering next. Editing by Tyler Morrisette. I'm Brian Keller, see you next time Backstage.