The Try Guys rebel against the algorithm

Ever wondered how to strike a balance creating a video that performs well but still satisfies your creativity? Zach Kornfeld, a member of the popular web series and production company The Try Guys, lays out how he “feeds the algorithm while also giving it a middle finger.”

In this episode of Digital Spaghetti, Zach and Jack Conte, musician and Patreon's CEO, use the series "Candid Competition” as a jumping off point to talk through The Try Guys’ meticulous video structure and why it’s okay, sometimes, to create solely for yourself.

Transcript

Zach Kornfeld:
This is my rebellion against YouTube. I resent the job that I have, and I'm going to feed the algorithm while also giving it a middle finger.

Jack Conte:
Zach Kornfeld is part of one of the most famous troupes on the internet, the Try Guys.

[Try Guys video clip]
♪ Ba, ba ba ba ♪

Why, guys?

I'm making a mess.

Jack Conte:
While working at Buzzfeed, the Try Guys made viral hit after viral hit, and they're still some of the most viewed videos on the channel. Zach and the guys left Buzzfeed in 2018 to start their own company, and they now have a team of 20 people. Today, we're looking at the first minute and 15 seconds of one of their videos to get to the bottom of their storytelling techniques and creative process.

Zach Kornfeld:
Again, this is a video about sandwiches.

Jack Conte:
And we're 11 seconds in, and there is zero mention of sandwiches.

Zach Kornfeld:
Correct.

Jack Conte:
We talk about how to make every second count, when he sticks to the rules of storytelling and when he breaks them, and why going viral is no longer his goal.

[Try Guys video clip]
We are rehearsing for our 20 city live tour.

Jack Conte:
So I want to watch the first minute and 15 seconds of the foot long face sub video.

Zach Kornfeld:
Okay, hilarious. Great.

Jack Conte:
And I want to kind of just break it down and ask you a million questions about it.

Zach Kornfeld:
Okay, cool.

Jack Conte:
All right? All right, here we go.

Zach Kornfeld:
See, I already broke the rule, though. This is one of the videos where this is like, I'm clearly doing this for me.

Jack Conte:
This was for you?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, this video breaks the rules.

Jack Conte:
What do you mean it breaks the rules? Why? You said that in the first shot.

Zach Kornfeld:
This video is stupid. This video is for me.

Jack Conte:
Wait, stupid? This is fucking great, look at this. You open this video like, I don't know where we are, Colombia? This is insane. So, why?

Zach Kornfeld:
So, I mean, look at — I guess I'll call it — look at the Mr. Beast-ification of YouTube. Look at how TikToks work. You need to grab people in the first second. The way that philosophy of YouTube works is that there's a thumbnail and a title, and the first second of the video should validate what you're watching. So this is a show that I make called Candid Competition, and this is —

Jack Conte:
It's great, by the way.

Zach Kornfeld:
Thank you. This is my rebellion against YouTube. This series is me saying I resent the job that I have and I'm going to feed the algorithm while also giving it a middle finger. So this format is all around major, recognizable brands. The thumbnail is me and Subway and Quiznos and whatever. If we do a pizza episode, it'll be Domino's and Pizza Hut and Papa Johns. So I'm giving you something that is inherently clickable, but when you get in, this is going to be a weird, hodgepodge passion project with an ongoing lore and stupid meta 4th wall breaks, and I am going to — yeah, I'm going to give you what I want the way that I want to do it. And as a result, this does not perform as well, because of course it doesn't.

Jack Conte:
It still performs really well, though. This is half a million views, or something like that. A million views on this.

Zach Kornfeld:
But that's bad for us, and that's the poison in my brain. This will never be a viral video. We misuse the term now. We just think that any video that does well is a viral video. It's not actually true. They're just popular videos.

Jack Conte:
You know what's so weird about that, too, is I almost think viral videos are not the goal anymore. They kind of used to be the goal in 2011, 2012. But now, I don't know, I talk to a lot of creators that are like, I want to reach and connect with my audience, which is very different than making a viral video.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, I think that in 2023, going viral tends to be the worst thing that can happen to you. If you're a regular person or a creator, going viral means you are now subjected to people who don't like you, and they are going to have some shit to say. I would love nothing more than to be able to not make viral videos for the rest of my life.

Jack Conte:
Okay, let's keep watching.

Zach Kornfeld:
Let's watch it.

Jack Conte:
Drone shots of Colombia, okay. We got 10 frames in, so that's pretty good. At this rate, we'll be here for the rest of the day. Okay, what is this? Where are you getting this footage?

Zach Kornfeld:
This is stock footage.

Jack Conte:
It's stock footage.
Zach Kornfeld:
I wish that we filmed this ourselves. Yeah, I don't know —

Jack Conte:
Do you edit these?

Zach Kornfeld:
No, this is my incredible editor Devlin McCluskey. He has been my co-creator for this specific series, Candid Competition. It was the first thing that we shot at the new Try Guys, when we started our new company. Keith and I, we filmed an episode, and we were like, this doesn't work, this sucks. And we gave the footage to Devlin like three months later and he figured it out, and we were like, “oh my god! This is amazing!” So because of that, this series kind of cultivated this lore that there was a nefarious force behind the curtains that was trying to cancel it. In the next season, I get kidnapped and brainwashed. This became a vehicle for me to take all of the weird genre proclivities that I have and backdoor them into a YouTube video.

Jack Conte:
That is absolutely what it feels like.

Zach Kornfeld:
Again, we're now four seconds in?

Jack Conte:
Yeah, four seconds. Okay, so all that is stock footage. The first five seconds, stock footage plus one title.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, with a really fun track.

Jack Conte:
Yes, yes, with, like, jungle drums kind of track. Okay, now this is the first, that's the first shot that you guys shot, right?

Zach Kornfeld:
Correct, yeah.

Jack Conte:
This is produced. Okay, and then one more question about the post production process. When you guys are brainstorming for this video and this intro sequence, do you storyboard? Are you having conversations with your editor about, hey, let's start with some jungle Colombia footage? How do you actually envision it and then communicate what you want to the team that's helping you make it?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, I mean, this show very much has the vibe of making movies in the backyard with your friends. This was not carefully thought through. I'd be surprised if I actually storyboarded this. I think I probably made a Google Doc shot list and came up with a rough script, and actually, the jungle footage wasn't originally part of it. That was Devlin's touch.

Jack Conte:
Just opens with the door opening — Yeah, okay. And then you set it up a little bit. Okay, makes sense, makes sense.

Zach Kornfeld:
This is, you know, it wants to be high art cinema, but is very clearly filmed on some DSLR with no lights.

Jack Conte:
Yes, but it is, obviously you're using cinematic vocabulary. The tilt up from the boots to the face timed with the flashlight and the click on.

Zach Kornfeld:
You can imagine if we had an anamorphic lens how good this would look.

Jack Conte:
We're watching every action movie and show ever.

Zach Kornfeld:
Again, this is a video about sandwiches.

Jack Conte:
Right, right, right, and we're 11 seconds in, and there is zero mentions of sandwiches.

Zach Kornfeld:
Correct.

[Clip from video]
Mr. Kornfeld.

Leave me alone.

Who makes the best custom sandwich?

Jack Conte:
Okay, wait, so this is so good, and that's such a funny shot. I want to just go back to this shot here. That shot is incredible. The choker on the eyes, so dramatic. Okay, the other thing is, the beard is kind of shitty, obviously.

Zach Kornfeld:
Oh, it's very shitty.

Jack Conte:
So are you guys purposely making it, because it is both cinematic and shitty as fuck at the same time.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
Is that the joke?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, I mean, this is John McClane in a jungle being called back into action, but it's me, and I look like a prepubescent child, and the call to action is not the freaking Terminator's back. We need you to talk about YouTube content.

Jack Conte:
Right, yes.

Zach Kornfeld:
We need you to do the most base YouTube content possible, which is sit at a table and eat sandwiches.

Jack Conte:
Here we go. So, one more question. Sorry to get really nerdy here, but these little dust flecks, is that all post?

Zach Kornfeld:
That's post.

Jack Conte:
Okay, so you're just adding a little bit of flavor to make it feel even more cinematic.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
Okay, so now we're 36 in. Finally we get the feeling, okay, you pulled out the curtain, we're back, and now we're going to understand where the world is without the joke is kind of what that shot feels like.

Zach Kornfeld:
Correct, and this is probably how the YouTube video should start, but I'm going to now deliver it in the most aggressively cheerful way possible because otherwise I would hate myself.

Jack Conte:
Can I just point out that you guys, the detail orientation is insane here. You're zooming in, you do a match cut on the forehead, and then pull back from the forehead. I don't know if anybody sees that.

Zach Kornfeld:
They shouldn't.

Jack Conte:
But it makes it feel consistent and fluid. To me, at least, it feels like the person who made this cares. It feels like every second matters. It makes it feel well crafted.

Zach Kornfeld:
It's so weird, it's both so endearing and also sort of soul crushing that this has become my life's work. But here we are.

Jack Conte:
Okay.

Zach Kornfeld:
What's up, party people? Welcome back to Candid Competition.

Jack Conte:
The team is 20 right now?

Zach Kornfeld:
Give or take.

Jack Conte:
Do they do all these graphics?

Zach Kornfeld:
So usually each editor will kind of handle their own stack. So this was made by Devlin McCluskey. Incredibly talented. He's really gifted at graphic work as well. So sometimes he'll help out with other series, but yeah, everything in this video, he did, and frankly I want to give credit where credit's due because I have an idea, I film it, I hand it off, and when it comes back to me, there is a lot that is often a surprise.

Jack Conte:
How opinionated are you about the graphics?

Zach Kornfeld:
Everything's top to bottom. Our edit process is insane. We are, on average, two weeks of post per video, but on our bigger series like Without a Recipe, it's over a month.

Jack Conte:
Per video? Per 20 or 30 minute episode?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
A month of post production?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, I mean, those shows are an hour, but yeah.

Jack Conte:
And that's a full time editor, and then notes from you and the team?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, so I go in. I've always — yeah, I'm the note giver of the group and love just getting my hands dirty and going in and really thinking about the construction of videos. It's, to me, still the most fun part.

Jack Conte:
What are your most annoyingly anal notes that you give an editor?

Zach Kornfeld:
I mean, if I get a 12 minute cut, there will be at minimum 20, sometimes 60 notes.

Jack Conte:
Wow.

Zach Kornfeld:
A lot of it is structural, right? So thinking through three act structure. Right now, one of my editors, Eliot, is working on a video, Try Guys Try Magic. Act one is us entering the world of magic.

[Clip of Try Guys video]
Seven of clubs. Where is it?

I really hope it's there.

Yeah, flip it around.

Zach Kornfeld:
We are reacting, we're seeing, you're mixing in pre-thoughts of how is this done. When I was a kid, I got a magic kit, but blah blah blah. You know, you're kind of intercutting. You're building the world of what is magic, and during that process, we're also seeing all this incredible footage of a magician wowing us. But now when we get to the second act, that act one break —

[Clip of Try Guys video]
Are you all ready to learn some magic right now?

Zach Kornfeld:
What I want act two to be is I want to see us failing.

[Clip of Try Guys video]
Is this your card?

Zach Kornfeld:
Honestly, I don't care how the trick is done. I don't even really care about seeing him. I want him to set up a trick and say, “here's the disappearing ace trick!” And then I want to cut to me or Keith shuffling, and the cards go everywhere, and I want act two to be this journey of us not really knowing how to do it to us sort of knowing how to do it. Great, now act two break, we're going to build up tension.

[Clip of Try Guys video]
Teens are hard to please.

It's like no bullshit type crowds where it either works or it doesn't.

Zach Kornfeld:
We've got this big show and we've got guests coming, so now that's where you go back to the pre-thoughts.

[Clip of Try Guys video]
To be a good magician, you gotta be, like, smooth and practiced and good with your hands. These things haven't worked a day in their lives.

Zach Kornfeld:
You're gripping people and saying, there's no way they're going to be able to pull this off. Now act three, boom, the show.

[Clip of Try Guys video]

The one right below.

You want this card?

Yeah, I want that card.

You want this card?

Zach Kornfeld:
And once we're in the show, we stay in the show, because I don't want to be taken out of the moment. If Keith does something right or wrong, I don't want to go back and see how he did it. Now this is all about sink or swim. This is the big performance.

Jack Conte:
So, okay, you used some vocabulary there. You called it act one break, act two break.

Zach Kornfeld:
I structure our videos exactly the way that all stories are structured. I'm using classic screenwriting cinematic vocabulary. So the act one break is the transition between act one and act two. So in a hero's journey, that's where Luke leaves home. I think about, you know, inciting incident. I think about act one break. I think about midpoint.

Jack Conte:
Do you? You really think about inciting incident?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, absolutely.

Jack Conte:
And do you try to nail a time in the video for the inciting incident to happen?

Zach Kornfeld:
Sort of, it depends on the length of the video, but roughly that minute 15 that we were talking about, that's kind of where we're setting up everything that's happening, and by a minute in, we are on our journey, let's go.

Jack Conte:
Then do you try to get to an emotional low at the end of act two?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
You do?

Zach Kornfeld:
Oh yeah, 100%.

Jack Conte:
So everybody's failed, it's dark, things are looking bleak.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
Okay, so you're really following typical three act structure in the videos.

Zach Kornfeld:
Our best videos — I mean look, again, there are videos where we're sitting at a table and, you know, ranking hot Disney DILFs. We make a lot of fucking videos, so they're not all made equal. But for what I consider a true, prototypical Try Guys video, I am trying to craft it and approach it — it's a three act structure, it's a hero's journey, it's Joseph Campbell, it's all that stuff.

Jack Conte:
Okay.

Zach Kornfeld:
I came from this. I had no interest in digital when I started. I wanted to make movies, and so the only way that I've gotten through this is to be able to put that passion for craft into this stuff.

Jack Conte:
I was wondering if you — clearly you are, you can see it in the videos. But you clearly have read all that stuff.

Zach Kornfeld:
Oh yeah, yeah, and it's like, you know, both my joy and my self hatred is that I'm able to put it in here, and then the hatred is that I'm only able to put it in here.

Jack Conte:
Okay, let's keep going.

[Clip of Try Guys video]
♪ Candid Competition ♪

We've decided to challenge five fast food sandwich chains to find out who makes the best custom sammie. The catch? they don't know they're competing. They don't even know they're in this video.

Jack Conte:
Okay, I want to pause here again, because you do something. The camera is constantly punching in and punching out, which is a very common technique. Is that happening in post or are you doing that?

Zach Kornfeld:
No, that's in production, and that just goes back to when we first started making videos. I would get bored. I like an active camera. I don't know if it goes back to me loving "The Office" or what, but I just find that camera improvising mixed with performance improvising makes everything funnier. I find nothing funnier than a well timed zoom, and so one of my first skills was being able to predict when Keith was going to make a joke, and boom.

Jack Conte:
Oh, that is so hot, because look at this.

Zach Kornfeld:
The catch? they don't know they're competing. They don't even know they're in this video.

Jack Conte:
So it's like they don't know they're competing. Zoom. Yeah, exactly, and it's so, it's rhythmic, it's musical.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
So, I mean, here's what I was getting at. Is this scripted? Does the cameraman know when you're going to say the punchline, and do they have a cue, or is it just like you guys are so fucking in touch with each other that you're both improvising and it landed in that moment?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, this is mostly pretty loose and us just being in tune, and frankly, that to me is the difference between the people we like and don't like working with. I need you all to be like we're making this together and living and being responsive to this thing, because if this camera were just static, this would not be as much fun. We probably shot this once, two or three times, and maybe he was like, oh, let me get that again. But I believe Miles, who was my sidekick in this series, I think he was behind camera at the time. He just had a really good feel for knowing my rhythm. So, I have a pretty predictable rhythm when I talk. It's, they don't know they're going to be doing this! They don't — You can kind of predict when I'm gonna do this next thing.

Jack Conte:
Yes.

Zach Kornfeld:
So that just is a moment to punctuate.

Jack Conte:
Oh! So have you talked about this with Miles? Or is it just something that has emerged from you guys? Does he know that you like an active camera and to punch in and to punch out at the joke moments and on time rhythmically?

Zach Kornfeld:
100%. I mean, this is something that we talk about, and Miles now runs our podcast department, so he's not behind camera anymore, so we have Jonathan, who works with us, and he has gotten really attuned to our rhythm. But now we also work with a ton of freelance people, and so each time we brought in our crew and bring in new people, there has to be conversations about what is the style of what we're making?

When we're making Without a Recipe or Phoning It In, that's meant to emulate the style of a Food Network show, so that's meant to feel more buttoned up and polished. So the camera is going to be a lot more professional, for lack of a better word. We still are going to be injecting some of that handheld energy. You know, if someone runs off set, get your camera off sticks and go with them. We always have at least two cameras, so we have our wide and we have our closeup, and that's usually where I'm saying something, and now I'm making a joke. And when I turn, boom, you're going to punch in, and you're just going to help me kind of punch that joke.

Jack Conte:
So good, so thoughtful, and so much detail and craftsmanship in what I think — I guess maybe the other question is like, do you find yourself wanting people to know how much you fucking think about this? Because for me, there's a piece of me, when I put that much work into something, I want people to know. I want people to know, and so I make a lot of behind the scenes stuff.

Zach Kornfeld:
Right.

Jack Conte:
This is almost kind of already behind the scenes stuff.

Zach Kornfeld:
I mean, my favorite part in your video is your showing me how you made the video while you're making the video, because you're like, this isn't like a stock track. I'm going to show you me making this song that you're now listening to.

[Clip from Jack Conte video]
Where are we going?

LA.

Zach Kornfeld:
I don't know, I think I used to have more of a desire for people to know, and that probably came from insecurity and a need for validation.

Jack Conte:
You're calling me insecure? You're saying I want validation?

Zach Kornfeld:
Well that's like, I did and I do.

Jack Conte:
Yeah.

Zach Kornfeld:
But then at a certain point I think I'm now more just, I don't know, I think if I didn't do this stuff, I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I would say, this is bad, and I don't know how many views it gets, this sucks and you're stupid for liking it. That's just genuinely how I would feel, so.

Jack Conte:
Let's just watch it one more time, because it's so beautiful.

[Clip of Try Guys video]
The catch, they don't know they're competing. They don't even know they're in this video.

Jack Conte:
There's a BPM when you speak. There's a BPM when you speak. Da da da da da da da da da. That's where the cut's going to be, right? And so really good editors have that kind of, they follow the musical flow of the dialogue, and then they cut on beat with the rhythm of the speaker.

Zach Kornfeld:
So you're going to love this. When I was — I don't edit anymore — I work with a big team, I try and honor their work process. But when I was editing, I would pre-lay tracks before I had finished filming. So the musicality is how I structure the video, and if you listen to our videos, you'll notice there are, we have a rule. No song can last more than 45 seconds. Usually they don't last for more than 15 seconds.

Jack Conte:
Is that still your rule?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, yeah. If I'm listening to one... ♪ Ding, ding, ding ♪ ...over and over again, I'm going to blow my brains out. So you're using — it's all about creating contrasting rhythms. So I'm a musical person, but I don't play music. But that is how my brain thinks, so when we are editing videos, it's da da da da da, da. Da da da da, da. You're trying to create contrasting rhythm as you go. So here, let's watch this, right? The first minute is this action movie, right? Now we slow down.

Jack Conte:
Right.

Zach Kornfeld:
The first nine seconds is fast, fast, fast.

Jack Conte:
Right, right.

Zach Kornfeld:
Now we slow down. We're in this really stupid —

Jack Conte:
Long, legato strings. No rhythm anymore.

Zach Kornfeld:
Then we have this swell. Now we're here. Welcome back to Candid Competition. Okay, we have our opening title. We don't even need to actually hear the music to know it, right, now we're... ♪ Boom, boom boom boom ♪ So now we're in this little section of what we're doing today.

Jack Conte:
Right.

Zach Kornfeld:
We're going to tell you, here are the players, but there's a catch. The song ends. They don't know they're in this video. They don't even know they're competing. New section.

Jack Conte:
New music.

Zach Kornfeld:
Now we're in spy mode, because I'm going to up the ante this video. We're not just comparing sandwiches, we are comparing sandwiches and we're doing it undercover. So now we have the spy music. ♪ Dun dun dun dun dun dun ♪

Jack Conte:
And by the way, you get these new, stylish shots that you haven't seen previously.

Zach Kornfeld:
Right.

Jack Conte:
This looks like first person camera stuff.

Zach Kornfeld:
Now we have hidden camera GoPro.

Jack Conte:
Is that purposeful as well? You don't show these shots until you get to that fourth section?

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, I mean, that is, this wasn't relevant until now, so we try and go where information is presented as it's relevant, not as it happened. So when we have, like, an interview in a more classically structured video, if I'm going to be performing magic for a bunch of teenagers, that's not important to know as the first thing out. Today we're trying magic. You know, today we're trying magic. What is magic? Today teaching us is this guy Kevin Lee, so now we're going to talk about Kevin. We're going to talk about magic. But by the way, at the end of this, you're going to be performing for children, right? So that's probably not important until the first act break because that's going to now transition us into our training montage.

Jack Conte:
And the theory there is information is presented as it's relevant.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah.

Jack Conte:
Not as it happened chronologically.

Zach Kornfeld:
Who cares about chronology? I never ever want to just sit in a full interview. Unless that's this. Then I would love to. No, but it's like if I'm doing a video about learning magic, I don't want to, like, hear all of my pre-thoughts about what I think magic is, then sit in all of the interview about what magic is, then sit in the training. I want to jump back and forth. We're weaving. We're kind of going back and forth, and you're creating new meaning via contrast. So the magician will say, it's all about delivery, and then it smash cuts to me going and now we've created a joke via expectation and reality. Or he'll say, you know, the most important thing is to have coordination, and it'll cut to me, the cards flying all over the place.

Jack Conte:
Amazing, okay, let's keep going from here.

[Try Guys video clip]
We're just going to roll up to five different sammo spots, ask them to recreate my face. Using the ingredients of their choice. I'm wondering if you would be able to make an open-faced sandwich, and you'd just be making my face.

Zach Kornfeld:
So this is a spy movie.

Zach Kornfeld:
We do some flash forwards just to kind of tell people, today on the Try Guys, here's what to expect. We're kind of, the way that "The Bachelor" will do, tonight on "The Bachelor"! A lot of our videos will begin with that kind of high intensity package to just basically give a minute long preview of here's everything you have to expect, and then we can then settle into more of a rhythm.

Jack Conte:
Yes, except you blew your first 40 seconds on the action movie.

Zach Kornfeld:
In this case, we fucked it up.

Jack Conte:
No no no, I mean, that's hilarious, because you take 40 seconds for an action passion project, and then you have to jam the intro in between second 40 and second 1:16, which is where this clip finishes.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yeah, it's true, I mean, we still, by minute 15, you know what the video is.

Jack Conte:
You know the whole thing.

Zach Kornfeld:
Yep.

Jack Conte:
It's so much information, but it's so well organized.

Zach Kornfeld:
Sure.

[Try Guys video clip]
In the end, we will settle once and for all whose footlong is worth putting in your mouth.

Jack Conte:
Which is such a great joke to end on.

Zach Kornfeld:
And it is like, you know, it's endearing because we're fucking up and we're showing you the seams, and it also is a rhythm break, right? The music was building, building, building, and now it stops, and I'm gonna fuck up. And I guarantee you, after that fuck up, slam the music back in.

Jack Conte:
Yep. Is that — Well, okay, zooming out for a second, what impresses me about all of this not only is how well sculpted and crafted and how much work and thought and strategy and energy goes into a minute and 15 seconds of a dumb YouTube video, right? But what is impressive is you're right. The key is in the organization of all of this, all of these points and beats and the music and the storytelling and characters. It's how all of that is organized, because I think what's special about you guys is you are both free flowing, spontaneous, fun, silly, improvisational.

Zach Kornfeld:
Sure, yeah.

Jack Conte:
And also fucking insanely methodical and organized. You have both of those sides of your brain operating at 100 out of 100, and that is a very rare. It's very rare that people have both of those things.

Zach Kornfeld:
Thank you. Yeah, I don't know where that comes from. I think it's a little bit of, you know, us all coming together. This show is very much Keith's school of thought and my school of thought slamming into each other. He is improv till the day he dies. He doesn't want to plan anything. Start rolling, and life will happen. And to his credit, I think he is right.

Reality is stranger than any fiction you can write. This show was actually his concept, but then slamming in my genre proclivities and my anal proclivity for over-planning and the two of them — And then Devlin's editing and his graphics, and those all kind of combine into something really chaotic. But it is like — you know, I'm not a naturally gifted performer. I fumble over my words. I stumble. I create meaning through the edit and so, you know, this has the energy of fucking around with your friends and making something in the backyard, and a lot of that footage, I guarantee you, is me being like, I don't fucking know. Okay, let's try that again. And then you do it, and then you get into the edit, and you try and you feel these rhythms and this musicality and you create meaning.

Jack Conte:
Well, this is fucking special. You're special.

Zach Kornfeld:
Thanks, man.

Jack Conte:
Thank you so much for doing this. This was exactly what I was hoping for. I feel like I got a view of the inside of your head, and that was —

Zach Kornfeld:
Let's see all the stuff we didn't get to.

Jack Conte:
We didn't get to any of it, actually. We got through the first three bullets.

Zach Kornfeld:
All right, well, next time.